It was never the SNCOs, it was always a SSG, SGT, or junior enlisted Soldier disrespecting these cadets (myself included). Does the cadet have offiCial orders? March 6th. They'd go nuts. As an MP Spec. As far as I know there are no CTLT positions in combat zones. They don't even have a MOS/Branch assignment or anything else at this point. Most cadets understand and respect the NCOs within their unit. U kunt uw keuzes te allen tijde wijzigen door te klikken op de links 'Privacydashboard' op onze sites en in onze apps. No salute. I really wish I didn't have to speak this way about you kids but most of you did the West Point thing for power or prestige, both of which are useless to Infantrymen, we care less what college you went to, if you can't think on your feat when round crack by you then you get my men killed. It broke my heart when I found out that officers can not be snipers. But Im sure he felt stung just a little bit. You probably dont salute WOs either because you think theyre beneath you as well. The key to success in your career is understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your key players AKA your subordinate leaders and junior Soldiers. This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs. You are absolutely wrong. Future leader in some position in our AF. And get to know your PBO very well! It is the oldest of the five American service academies and . We had a young know it all LT around the COMS tent he starts looking around and I see him messing with the ground strap the future leader of our troops disconnected it. It would be earned when I became the kind of Officer that he would be honored to serve as right hand to. Light wear. I really liked the story and learned something as well having been a former SMP Cadet before I commissioned. In fact, based on my experience there are some West Pointers out there who never learned that. March 4th. He has much humility and respect for all who serve and served so he will appreciate your words. He's a former U.S. Army Ranger and Green Beret. One of the biggest reasons to pursue Officership through USMA at West Point is free tuition, including an annual stipend of more than $10,000. I am acting PL of my platoon because we dont have a 2LT. The one group that actually gave us respect and tried to help and mentor us were the senior NCOs. Shiver me timbers he pooped on the deck. What is the TO&E and where is the cadet slotted? Army West Point football players will honor the special forces soldiers who helped liberate Afghanistan from Al-Qaeda with the "United We Stand" uniforms they wear for the Dec. 11 showdown . The views expressed are those of the authors, and do not reflect the official position of the United States Military Academy, Department of the Army, or Department of Defense. Not only do NCO's get shit on by their LT's but sometimes the LT is getting shit on by his Company Commander. As SNCOs think of this as an opportunity to shape the Os of the future. Sorry- from a legal perspective there is a lot not discussed. A (knight) officer is a commissioned officer and formally addressed as "SIR!" I thought this is a very well written article. Actually, cadets do fill positions in the National Guard in the Simultaneous Membership Program and can be assigned to an O-2 slot for a period of years. Gain the Advantage With a Full-Tuition Scholarship. I felt honored to have him there. No idea if it is being taught now at BNCOC or ANCOC. The definition is enhanced further by stating Soldiers "present for duty." As others have commented, folks should remember that those Cadets that you give a hard time to will in a short time become those officers that are in charge of writing your NCOERs never mind the fact that they also will be your leaders when deployed in a combat zone ( I served in the 1st Cav Div during Desert Shield and Storm), in other words garbage in equals garbage out. We want to mold a new Officer to become a great leader we can always remember but there's a limit to what we're willing to do. Word of advice, if you want to write an op-Ed then you should submit it for publication. Visiting West Point Alma Mater/Songs Army-Air Force Series Army-Navy Star Series presented by USAA The Patriot League If you think a fellow West Point graduate is a great leader, see how she/he behaves after having a soldier vaporized by an RPG in front of him. AR 600-20 lists command structure. Give credit where its due and stop making it about you. including multiple combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and five years in two elite Special Forces units. It is a chain of command situation. Youre right, Sergeant, a West Point cadet DOES outrank you. "b. I was recently in a conversation with a senior noncommissioned officer in an elite US Army unit, when the subject of CTLT came up. Be safe out there, use the "recon by fire" method if probing a road and drop to the ground when a frag is near you, the explosion goes up and away. While being true you must also realize there is a need for Commissioned Officers as well as Non Commissioned Officers. Cadets should know that they must earn respect. Somehow, the memo of shifting demographics of new Soldiers within the Infantry never reached West Point so there's a huge disconnect in reality. Thus, I suspect a warrant officer's wife is addressed a "wifady" (wife/lady.) It would have sent enough juice thru the not yet graduate nor commissioned idiots heart to stop. One might argue that a cadet who is SMP, simultaneous membership program, would be regularly assigned. I believe my words only carried weight because I've already been in the Army for 10 years and the Senior cadre knew this (I didn't get in any trouble). If cadets, during this valuable leadership experience, are not given the chance to act as lieutenants and acting platoon leaders, then the whole CLTC program should be scrapped. Because according to the Army, they outrank me, sir.. I would argue that the NCO/CO rivalries have started as a result of more modern times as compared to past wars and generations and honestly it should stop. 18A Special Forces officer is NOT a selection for branches on graduating from West Point. The Modern War Institute does not screen articles to fit a particular editorial agenda, nor endorse or advocate material that is published. Size: Small to Medium | Condition: Very good. I never saluted another LT after that as an LT. The United States Military Academy (USMA), also known metonymically as West Point or simply as Army, is a United States service academy in West Point, New York.It was originally established as a fort, since it sits on strategic high ground overlooking the Hudson River with a scenic view, 50 miles (80 km) north of New York City. His research interests include irregular warfare, surrogate warfare, and insurgency. the Armed Forces of the United States (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard), the commissioned corps I was surprised at the gate when I was saluted by the gate personnel. Founded in 1802, the United States Military Academy at West Point is the oldest military academy in the nation. It'd be an advantage coming from an Airborne infantry unit too, usually from the 82nd. So I think he had it right. A CSM outranks a SPC, but you never see the latter salute the former. WO1s even as appointed Officers are subject to all provisions of the UCMJ even art 33. Both have an option for Cadets to be apart of a simultaneous membership program. You are not a leader because you graduated from an academy. A very interesting thread. It's virtually guaranteed there are at least one or two SNCO in a given company qualified to take a short term command of the company. Sir. Death, disability, retirement, reassignment, or absence of the commander. Has the. Thread Special Forces. I learned something that day. I found from many years in the Army - with many years in the Special Operations forces - that if you do your current job great it will open the doors to the next job. . It's often hard to find but its often the real truth on a subject especially if it's being spoon fed to you in briefs and media. To this day I credit a lot of the success I had when I went on active duty after I graduated to this great NCO. Dont take it as a sign of disrespect however. This should not turn into a them vs us type of debate. The fully-funded four-year education stands out amongst top non-military universities, and is worth more than $225,000. In reserve and guard units, SMP cadets do hold assigned positions, but have no position in the chain of command. Nope. My first platoon leader was OCS, my other two were USMA. Special Forces Command 2020: 25th Infantry Division 2019: 1st Cavalry Division 2018: 1st Infantry Division 2017: 10th Mountain Division 2016: . The Cadet wr had wrote all of us NCOs that trained him, some. In my case I was lucky and had a CO who was ROTC cadre and knew what to do with me. Each job is as important as the rest. Some people hate lying motionless for hours upon days. And keep your mouth open and eyes covered with your hands when it or any other explosion goes off near you. And I declined two Bronze Stars because some senior Officer decided to dispense them for every Officer and Senior NCO in theater! Production NCO(i overseen what the shift leaders do as far as getting production done (preparing the sustenance for the Airmens consumptioon in accordsnce with AF Standards i showed him the Regs and the Cook production logs the leaders (shiftleader, 1st Cook, Baker Supervisor, bskers) follow at various levels of preparinv the Sustenance.. As an humorous aside, earlier I mentioned that the junior officers in my reserve unit treated cadets as little more than errand boys. Coming straight out of a college (any college) prepares you for exactly nothing. Every single SNCO I've come in contact with in ROTC has developed me as an Officer. Sure I went through some hazing ( Sir, could you go to the motor pool and ask the motor sergeant for a left thermal heat reticle calibration tool? I was sent all over the place until I finally caught on.) We need not be concerned about the proviso of either 2-15 or 2-16 as each applies to a Soldier under certain sanctions of discipline. FOOLISH it is for there to be any antagonism between NCOs and cadets, or NCOs and lieutenants. . Elite only in their mind. 99.9% waiting, 0.1% trigger pulling. ROTC cadets do too. We are officers in training and when we get a chanve at a leadership role with the guidance of the NCOs it will ensure our success as officers. I mean, that certainly seemed to be the case at Airborne School back in the day. His approach to us was simple and he asked lots of questions about how to best kill tanks and he found that each man has their own method of how they like to do things and tactics they like or dislike and for what reasons. Officers, commissioned warrant officers, midshipmen, cadets, candidates are all affordedofficer status. The smart LT listens to his/her NCO and seeks counsel from him/her. Officers and NCO's must realize alike that, they way you treat your future Officers (NCO's case) and the way you treat your subordinates (Officers case) will dictate how the military can and will be run in the future. And you don't have to do any of that for delta. Mids rank between W-1 and W-2 last time I had occasion to check. In flight school cadets qualified for flight pay in addition to their regular pay. No, I always salute them and treat them as officers, and I make sure everyone else does too, he replied in total sincerity. The ones that get emotional about my post will reply as expected and miss the lesson altogether because they've been hard wired to respond that way. Hope this was brief enough for you or TL:DR? In respect of ROTC, the R stipulates that only a contracted cadet in ROTC fits the definition I presented. Most of us own our own firearms and body armor because we assume nothing but pray for the best. Look at any Command where a COL thru Gen and you will see a whole lot of Soldiers both Officers and NCOs running and doing everything to make that command function! So you are incorrect when you say that Cadets outrank me. Upon the successful completion of flight school cadets received their flight wings and were commissioned as second lieutenants and incured an additional four year service commitment. We always give you a chance before we let you sink your career all on your own. The reason you would place cadets above enlisted in the rank chart is because they will be officers. Long story short: Years of hands-on experience trumps reading an instruction manual, This applies in every situation and every single time. And if for one second you think any Infantrymen will ever do something that violates our Constitutional form of government, you've made the worst assumption of your young life. 2021 Next Gen National Security Fellow. Cadet you are not a cadet when in you ng or reserve unit. Allow them to lead you too! I have heard the saying "Stop being an arrogant officer?" Hooah!!! At West Point now and am trying to gauge which option I should pursue branch wise out of here. Everyone knows that the lowest Army private outranks the highest cadet right? document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); The articles and other content which appear on the Modern War Institute website are unofficial expressions of opinion. Now by chance he.be in a billet at some hq and psperwork comes in front of him about ration counts for personnel and what the job description calls for for a 3m Senior Cook requisition.. for his order.. what its called these days) hell be sble to understand better what the job description says. Example: In the U.S. Military a Warrant Officer (W-2W-5) are commissioned but are not gentlemen officers. I learned something that day. March 5th. That is why cadets dont go to parade rest while talking to NCOs. Only through a wriiten agreement from the pms tonthe guard commander are allowed to serve as acting LT's. The official General page for the Army West Point Black Knights. Correction The lugnut comment was in reference to comment 11 from Toga, not the author. Normal members of the medical team fall within a strict hierarchy (just like rank). Speed is your friend in a convoy, never drive slower than the rest of the civilian traffic, that way when a bad guy is trying to catch up to your convoy, he sticks out big time and the rear vehicle can easily engage him. Requirements for a USAF Aviation Cadet at the time were two years of college and passing scores on a series of IQ and skills tests such as mathematics, logic, and spatial relations. Its like my father (retired CW3) taught me; " I don't have to respect you but I HAVE TO RESPECT your rank.". Medical students do not do anything on their own authority, and it would be illegal as they are unlicensed. Interestingly, one weekend I had a pass and visited a college friend at a nearby naval base where he was undergoing Navy Aviation Cadet training. Payback is one reason to avoid it. Then we'd mow the guy down with an M4. From the enlisted perspective, while drilling with my Guard unit, there was confusion as to where exactly Cadets fit in to the scheme of things. By reg,they can't command or lead troops in the field. The first three months were preflight training at Lackland AFB where we were taught basic military skills such as customs and courtesies, UCMJ, drill, Air Force history, parachute training, confidence course, and firearms training. Get off your high horse. Nike Men's Army West Point Black Knights White Pinstripe Full Button Replica Baseball Jersey $110.00 Limited Stock to Ship ADD TO CART Nike Men's Army West Point Black Knights 2022 Rivalry Collection #1 Green Untouchable Game Football Jersey $78.97 $105.00 * Limited Stock to Ship ADD TO CART The cadet would still have to be "Regularly Assigned". And cadets initiate salutes to any commissioned officer. I work with my leadership and learn from them and they help to shape me to become a good officer. . The discussion shifts to Cold War Europe, and he addresses both the Cuban Missile Crisis and the later shift to Dtente. Plain and simple, I want to be the best and I will do anything, inside my own morals, to get there. Nobody reads your comments past the first four lines. Very nice endorsements. Tom has spent time working at various levels of local government as an intern for both the 27th legislative district in Arizona as well as the office of Arizona governor Doug Ducey during the COVID-19 pandemic. that When in Charge, Be in Charge applies. Training emphasized task organization, mission analysis and planning, property accountability, negotiation skills, emotional intelligence, small unit tactics proficiency, advisor skills, navigating. I let crap roll off of my back, but when I attended Fort Knox this last summer there were way too many NCOs who had a big chip on their shoulder. And if you think islam is a warm and fuzzy religion, you're way off! Of course, there is another reason to treat West Point and ROTC cadets with respect: they are not going to be cadets forever. Fact #1: West Point is the oldest continuously operated Army post in the United States. If you are a senior in high school, in college, or already in the Army, apply as soon as possible. Per the order, they are not entitled to a salute. Are we really saying an NCO could not do that? All true. I found myself going toe to toe with these junior NCOs and enlisted, but not to destroy their souls (as the NCO in me wanted to do so badly) but to talk to them and help them understand that if you treat these cadets like crap, it will be returned 10 fold in a year when they commission, hate NCOs, and are their raters. Let me explain: Its summertime, and for many cadets in the Armys ROTC programs and at West Point, that means Cadet Troop Leader Training or CTLT. Mainly because I do belive the new generation of officers are a bunch of participation trophy recieving, never held accountable, privileged, idiots who can't handle that all that academy training and degree mean jack shit but to stroke their since of superiority over others. Whoever came up with this interpretation needs to review deeper. Salutes will be exchanged between officers (commissioned and warrant) and enlisted personnel, and with personnel of So I suppose we dont salute appointed Officers either? Corps of Engineers with a class of 5 officers and 10 cadets on March 16, 1802. Milley Speaks at West Point GraduationWEST POINT, NY, UNITED STATES05.21.2022Defense Flash News - May 2022https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgt2lndbOCnZHPMh. Army-Navy Wrestling Tickets (February 19, 2023), Official E-Mail of Army West Point Athletics. But having learned this, it made me wonder when this would actually matter in any meaningful way. Tell the NCO's that you don't want to seem like a dick that you're being so picky on things, you're just building trust so later you know who's good to go and what each of our strengths are and that goes for the young LT as well (that's called humility and the men will understand because it's fair). Or no opportunity? A little ancient cadet history for anyone interested. You must log in or register to reply here. they will give you what ever other training they need you to do. (I was going through a few operations connected to wound recovery). I was assigned to the 25th ID in 1972. I learned something that day. First off the reg says regularly assigned personnel, which the Cadets are not. As that was a long time ago, my memories of the experience were that it was the best and the worst of both worlds. Interestingly, when a graduating cadet received his commission, (there were no females in the cadet corps in those days), his commission was backdated 15 months to the date he entered the cadet program, giving him a lead on promotion to first lieutenant. Working as a deputy or person number 2 is always a difficult task. United States Military Academy, byname West Point Academy, institution of higher education for the training of commissioned officers for the United States Army. Is a cadet a regularly assigned Army Soldier? Thought about it and stored it away and drove on. If you've ever been in a doctor's appointment and a medical student was assigned to your doctor, that's about how cadets in CTLT and SMP function. You do your best, and if they see enough that they like, they may SELECT you. So our government invested thousands on a lying, dishonest, ill-informed, and immature man child to lead others. Commit to service as an Army Officer after graduation. Scott welcomes story ideas and feedback on his articles, and can be reached at, ts summertime, and for many cadets in the Armys ROTC programs and at West Point, that means . If you run a command climate where you relegate your NCOs to small picture things, you will be a small picture unit and your good NCOs will find their way out of your unit and you will be left with small picture, tunnel vision type folks such as those that you describe. He is passionate about the policymaking process, civil-military relations, and great power competition in the polar regions. single time. I wore the Cadet rank insignia of 2LT. I wish all the young people about to start their time at the USMA or ROTC would come back after they branch just to see how many select what they started out wanting. I was wondering if I would have to make mention of the fact that until they are COMMISSIONED Officers, they will remain nothing more than a glorified E-5 NCO pay scale while in USMA. Medical issues can hold up the selection process for 1. (Still, there is no need to salute them. Knights lifted their helmet to recognize they friends from enemy. They are TDY for a few weeks therefore their authority only extends to West Point. Of course there is a certain type of officer who fails to get it. Something I wish I knew 50 years ago. When an NCO saluted me, I didn't just wave my hand at my cover to dismiss the salute, but "locked up" a little myself, acknowledged him with eye contact, and responded to any greeting. When contracted you take the officer version of the oath as well. Thats what the reg says, but how does that work in practice? Now it was said in good humor. The two year enlistment term allowed for cadets who had to temporarily halt training because of illness or injury. The Air Force Aviation Cadet program was fazed out during the mid 1960's as the Air Force Academy became the primary source of flight rated officers. A lot of people have been killed in combat because of the arrogance of westpointers. Hands on training.. they eill not actually be cooking but learning from hose that do it daily.. The rank of a cadet is for protocol issues alone such as where to stand in a receiving line or where to sit at a formal dinner. Strangely enough, the Services expect the exact same behavior as "officers and gentlemen" (and of course ladies) from cadets and midshipmen, as they are also subject to Article 133, even lacking a commission, and some are dismissed from the Service every year for violating Article 133. Rather, the Modern War Institute provides a forum for professionals to share opinions and cultivate ideas. A Gunny at 29Palms RTAMS and a Chief at NASA/AMES CA are among my most treasured mentors. Youll also be training cadets, taking courses in leadership development, chain of command, military history, and more. Those choosing a civilian career have attained great success in different professionsas doctors, CEOs of major companies, and engineers - the possibilities are endless. There are no events scheduled on March 5th. Such questions are usually better asked through private means. I'm an Eagle Scout and attended West Point as a recruited collegiate athlete. Holds the MOH, four Silver Stars, ten combat ribbons, CIB, is airborne qualified and ex special forces. Technically. Tom Katsenes is currently a junior at the United States Military Academy at West Point, majoring in American politics. That sounds like a fun and challenging job. Including West Point complete cadet uniform, SFWS Dress tunics, trousers, dress shirts, belt buckles, service cap and more. I had a CO at one point who absolutely had a genuine dislike for NCOs and believed them to be useless. All Army personnel in uniform are required to salute when they meet and recognize persons entitled to the salute. As for me, while a SNCO would in general be qualified to succeed a LT as platoon leader, any such succession would need to be limited to a short term basis. More than likely you are just privileged. How does one get involved with special forces after West Point? Some of the comments left in this thread have really let me down. For lack of official guidance I was assigned as an assistant platoon leader in an Armored Cavalry Company and my platoon sergeant was a former Navy Seal with combat tours in Vietnam (along with other unmentionable places during that conflict). More than 300 U.S. Military. Salute were means of communication. They are top of the line and I always set my goals as high as I can.